And the Debate Begins… Peer-to-Peer and Marxism : analogies and differences | Jean Lievens interviewed with Michel Bauwens |
►https://snuproject.wordpress.com/2012/01/03/and-the-debate-begins-peer-to-peer-and-marxism-analogies-and-d
►http://forum.tanit.co/joomla/index.php/forum/5-General-Discussion-%28public%29/694-Peer-to-Peer-and-Marxism#694
The situation with capitalism is not that different, though there was, and is, a lot of hardship, the formal rights of workers are certainly an improvement, and at least for the western working class, there has been for a long while, substantial material improvement. But overall, the systems transitioned because the old system was no longer sustainable and the new one was overall more efficient in creating material riches. It all depends on the social contract and the relative strength of the forces at play. Strong labour movements have tremendously improved the situation of working people, and the situation in the Middle Ages between the 10th and the 13th century was also one of improving living standards. So the record is always mixed and the people themselves usually have a pretty clear picture of what needs to be improved. For example, what worker would want to a return to serfhood as a social condition? Since I have difficulties in imagining a classless society myself, I see peer producers in conflict with netarchical capital about their social condition, rights, and material livelihoods, until the moment that peer producers become the core social layer, and the commons the locus of core value creation. This is not a scientific scenario with a certain and unavoidable ending but rather a description of the field of tension in which peer production develops.
> quelle #valeur générée par les commons en mode de production capitaliste ? « hyperproductive model » ? >> where is nouvelle théorie de la valeur (cf. Lazzarato ►http://seenthis.net/messages/35765 ) ?
> le #capitalisme contemporain est-il un « cognitive capitalism » ? Que ranger dans le travail immatériel (différents procès de production, nouvelles aliénations, management, #néocapitalisme ) ? Dès lors, toujours pareil, what is « #p2p #peer_to_peer production » et quelle valeur de cette production ?
> (altercapitalisme ou alternative au capitalisme ? (Mais cette question n’est-elle pas rhétorique ?)) cc @prac_6 :
On ne peut pas reprocher à #Marx de n’avoir pas vu les émergences post-capitalistes dans l’immanence du présent, c’est précisément ce qu’il considère comme sa grande découverte (et qui le distingue des socialistes « utopiques » (cf. Les « préfigurations de l’avenir » dans les Grundrisse )